Client feedback & the endless "colors are off" problem

Oliviero Bella Vita Jan 11, 2017

  1. Hey guys,

    I am mainly in TV Commercials, and clients (creative directors) give their feedback to us on the grade either by looking at the material on their mobile phones or MAC laptops, and there is always this endless back and forth about skintones being too red, or mood too pale, or not warm etc. Clients so so rarely attend the grading suite anymore.

    The truth is that in our suite we grade on DaVinci and use a 25" Panasonic BT-LH2550 as our broadcast/pro monitor. Looking at the apple display DaVinci runs on, their comments are valid, but not on the ref monitor. It got so heated with one clients that he never worked with us again thinking we don't know what we're doing.

    We solved this by simply grading based on our Retina MAC screens and feedback from clients has been minor and/or constructive. Now of course this is not the way to do it, but this is the way we're able to get a final "approval" on the TVC in order to go on air, or (recently) on social media and youtube.

    Moreover, since a lot of what we do is switching towards content which is ending up online, I believe a retina display is enough to pull off a grade. How much the advertising industry has changed in the last 5yrs is incredible.

    Looking forward to your comments!
  2. When's the last time you calibrated the Panasonic? Those have always leaned green to me, and even a pro/broadcast monitor should be recalibrated regularly..
    Margus Voll likes this.
  3. Having a lightspace report for the reference monitor and a Mac laptop for comparison usually resolves this discussion.
    Tero Ahlfors likes this.
  4. The truth is most mac / Retina screens are at 200/300 nits so everything looks way saturated. It's a real problem. I 've got used to it. whenever a client annoys me with that I make everything less bright and less saturated on the timeline node. hah.
  5. The perfect situation would be to send over a guy to the client's office and calibrate their monitor as much as is possible (and practical). Just turning off the automatics, getting it close to 6500°, and getting the PLUGE pulse set makes a big difference.
    Jesse Glucksman and Qiang Tang like this.
  6. I wish, they're mostly overseas, Dubai and the sort
  7. Few days ago. Mine leans red actually I feel. How did you calibrate yours?
  8. I do final delivery mainly to mobile screens (cell and VR), I am hoping one of you expert/industry guys put something together on "Mobile&VR color management". I btw noticed today the google pixel/dreamvr does an excellent job on blacks but does some funky things on whites(this is about opposite what happens on oculus). Another thing is it's sometimes the mobile screen, but often I find there is some wierd software thing in color management. And on the VR side I'd say the screen is at issue bellow half the time, most of the time the black point/white point/tint issues have to do with the lensing.
  9. It's been a long time since I've been in front of one.

    We use Lightspace and a Klein probe for our screens, and throw a LUT box in the chain where needed.
  10. Since they can afford remote grading, they probably can afford an i1 Display Pro..
    Marc Wielage likes this.
  11. Hello Oliviero
    I'm living in Dubai but I'm in vacation right now and i will be back in 21st of this month and in my home setup I have FSI CM250 if you like you can send your client to view the video in my monitor.
    Marc Wielage likes this.
  12. Look into:
    If you have the gear you can offer to calibrate your client's hardware or at least make a screening LUT for output (a slippery slope)
  13. hmmm ... this could work ... what if did a screen pattern on a ezio 318, oculus rift, vive, google pixel, daydream, ipad ; placed all of them next to the 318 in a dark room; took a shot of all of them in the same frame with a RED camera (of which I have color tables for). Then I could atleast know the color drifts between each of these devices. Sometimes the films are actually run through unity, so theoreticaly I guess I could have a different color lookup table for each of these phone devices?
  14. We are beta testing an Android/iSO patch generator - LightSpace Connect - that will profile mobile phones, as well as 'cast' to TVs, etc..
    Info was announced in our latest new letter:

    At least this will enable VR screens to be profiled, and allow the generation of correction LUTs - but you would have to burn the LUTs into the video footage, as your can't actually colour manage phone screens via LUTs (yet...)

    Patrick Faith likes this.
  15. You are better off calibrating the devices individually. Looking at a screen from another captured color space is a no-no. All devices/platforms transform/transcode media. It' the nature of things. Even uploading a movie with Vimeo specs to Vimeo... it gets re-encoded. You can control/account for them all... When someone adjust their brightness levels which can (sometimes) effect saturation or contrast (which always effects saturation) on your client's client's (not a typo) device... all your calibration is slightly/majorly off. You just have to get the initial colorspace and gamma right and let it be and teach your clients about the process.
    Send them calibrated iPads or Laptops or go to their offices and calibrate their gear for them. Good for client bonds and your sanity.
    my 2¢
    Marc Wielage likes this.
  16. If something is destined for a certain type of display then surely there's no point calibrating to some broadcast standard? Instead you need to view through the destination or create a LUT to emulate that on your main displays.

    On the iDevice stuff usually the basic gamut is very close to 709 primaries, and D65. But the brightness is usually completely different and now with ambient light sensing (TrueTone?) that D65 can be all over the shop. Then the 7 and iPad Pro has extended gamut, closer to P3 but i'm pretty sure most playback of video content is not 'tagged' for extended and will not suddenly over saturate but i could be wrong. Maybe there's some combination of settings and software that is interpreting what should be 709 as P3 on these devices, resulting in super saturated colours?

    You can't really calibrate iPads though, they are what they are beyond changing brightness, true tone and nightshift. That's a shame as they'd be awesome devices to sanity check on (i think they're pretty good as they are though)

  17. The last time I saw Michael Cioni of Light Iron, he told me they had come up with a process to sort of "quasi-calibrate" client iPads so that their dailies looked reasonable. I don't have the details on it, but he said it would work with iPad 3 and up. It may be proprietary to Live Play and all that stuff.
  18. You could develop an app that did playback through a provided LUT, maybe there is even an app out there that would do that already? The iPads i've profiled aren't far off sRGB but the Pro and the iPhone 7 both have better screens and the concept of extended RGB, which is close to P3 but images and media has to be 'tagged' to use that, by default it will be sRGB. This is what i've gleaned from developer documentation rather than working out how to do it myself yet, so take with a pinch of salt right now

  19. We have looked into both Android and iOS calibration, and as Paul says the only option is a playback App that uses some form of LUT (or dare I say ICC) application for colour management of images/video viewed through that App...

    We may, or may not, develop something for this based on the work we have done for 'LightSpace Connect', but we're not sure of the likely take-up, as not being OS-wide calibration is a real limit.

    As the moment we have customers simply running their dailies through a calibration LUT for a given tablet, so the 'calibration' is burnt into the footage...

    Marc Wielage and RAMI DAIBS like this.
  20. I'd be interested in this Steve.

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