Laser projector for post production ?

Hi everyone,
Out of curiosity, I recently went on Cinionic website and found this :
A white paper with some considerations on solving the metamerism issue on laser projectors : https://www.cinionic.com/white-paper/advancing-color-accuracy-in-cinema-postproduction/

And a new laser projector from Barco specifically intended for post production :
https://www.cinionic.com/news/cinionic-debuts-new-barco-laser-projector-for-post-production/

Did anyone here have some insights or feedback about it ? Will laser replace Xenon in post house in a near future ?

Cheers,
Alex
 
I think the Barco SP4K-P is the laser version of the DP4K-P. It's not yet listed on their website, so I assume it's very new:

Barco Series 4 Laser Projectors
https://www.barco.com/en/products/p...o-dxp:product/product-facet/dc_Serie/Series_4

I've been told that several laser projection companies have a "Xenon simulation mode" that will preview what it will look like on conventional projectors, but I couldn't tell you if it works or not.
 
Will laser replace Xenon in post house in a near future ?

If "near future" means within the next 3-5 years, and "replace" means at least 80% adoption, then right now my guess would be "No". Some laser installations sprinkled around as people test and experiment? That seems possible.

The main reason I say this is we were looking at what were pitched as viable post production laser projectors back in 2018-2019 and none of those units became popular. The only laser projector that's made a notable impact is the Dolby Eclipse units that Dolby leant or leased to companies for Dolby Cinema mastering. IMHO, that's the best viewing device of any kind that's ever been created, but it took extraordinary engineering to get it there and distilling that tech down to something cost effective enough (sub $100K) to replace xenon has been very difficult. I also believe there are critical design elements in that projector that Dolby doesn't intend to license out.

What that means is that Barco, Christie, and company are going to have to find their own path, and at this point we are still waiting for them to deliver something that's actually viable for post. They say they have post laser options, but as far as I can tell there have been no real takers at this point. No one is willing to be stuck with a $150K+ turkey that none of their colorists want to use. Especially in the current environment.

The post laser projector situation is just like our dreams of a sub-$10K mastering OLED. As soon as something hits, you'll hear about it.
 
Are there any other problems with laser except metamerism?
The latest generation has solved the speckling issue pretty well but in my opinion the metarism failure from rgb laser is a big no. I sat with 15 color professionals in a side by side comparison between xenon and laser and we couldn't even agree on what was wrong with the colors. When we did test corrections our images looked very different and that is because the metarism failure is different for every individual that sees it. It's like the problem with RGB oled just worse. I have been told that there is virtually no metarism failure with phosphor laser as this is closer to a xenon projector with a laser light source instead of a bulb. It has become possible to upgrade xenon barco projectors to laser phosphor and the ones I have used looked good when compared to a calibrated monitor.
 
Are there any other problems with laser except metamerism?

Longevity: This is anecdotal just based on my own experience, but a number of the benefits that have been promoted are not panning out so far. One of the big ones besides peak light output (which is the #1 benefit of laser) is longevity. There is a thought that laser projection will lower costs as laser packs last 6-7 or more years and will offset the cost of xenon bulbs ($1000+ cost every 900-1500 Hours). This isn't completely playing out though, as in some cases laser packs are needing to be replaced in 2-3 years. If you are in warranty then replacement might be covered, but if you are not the costs can be very high. The bottom line as a business owner is that you need to have a plan if the laser packs don't last as long as expected and you are out of warranty.

Speckling: In 2018-2019 was a large problem, but like Rune says, it has been fixed in some projectors by vibrating the DMD in the light engine. This is the way the Eclipse handled it and why it never required a vibrating screen. You'll need to check on a model by model basis to make sure whatever you buy addresses this as well.

Power/AC: Other issues to watch out for are power and cooling requirements. Some laser projectors are attempting to be drop-in replacements for xenon, but others, especially ones that promote higher light output will need additional power and AC capacity to reach those light levels.

Black Levels: Finally, and this is a big one, while laser is brighter, it doesn't inherently have better black-level performance. Low min black levels are achieved in the light engine. The Eclipse creates low black levels by using an initial white-only DMD that controls luminance with a second RGB DMD that controls color. It's a very similar concept to how DMCL panels work, extended to projection. The thing that makes a really good display stand out isn't it's light output, its the black level performance. So, if you are able to do a xenon/ laser comparison make sure that you note the black levels as in a lot of cases it will be exactly the same as a xenon. A lot people assume that this issue goes away simply by moving to laser (like say, buying an OLED), but it doesn't and it's a very complex problem to solve.


[Edit: one more addition...]

Safety: It's pretty common in a lot of situations to walk through the beam of a projector, either getting to your seat or when walking up to the screen to examine things like sharpness, convergence, uniformity, etc. You need to be careful when doing this and avoid accidentally turning around and looking into the beam of a laser projector. If the right content is up and you get hit directly in your retina it can cause temporary spots in your vision, or even something more permanent. You'll probably need to hang warning stickers on your theater doors and make sure to remind anyone that comes in to be careful.
 
There are a lot of bold statements made in this thread , based on anecdotes. None of them are backed up by quantitative data.

Black Levels: Finally, and this is a big one, while laser is brighter, it doesn't inherently have better black-level performance.

If you make a display brighter and maintain blacks that display has more dynamic range or contrast. Single DMD Laser projectors typically have 1-2 Stops more dynamic range than a Xenon equivalent.
 
Hi Daniele,

Thanks for chiming in.

Do you have any experience of laser projection being used in post production ?
As it is more and more widely used in theaters I think it might make sense at some point to use them for color grading but I've read all over this forum about metamerism issues...
If this can be solved then why not ?
Would love to have your opinion on this :)

Cheers
Alex
 
I was involved in the experiment set-up for the paper mentioned in the first comment.
There are still more experiments needed to publish results.
I am just saying that it is way too early to draw any conclusion or state any 'facts'.

There are two issues which are interweaved:
- Bad metameric prediction of the CIE 1931 observer, which is still used by all calibration equipment
- Interobserver Metamerism

You cannot make any prediction about the latter if the former is masking the data.
 
There are a lot of bold statements made in this thread , based on anecdotes. None of them are backed up by quantitative data.

I attempted to preface my statements with "This is anecdotal just based on my own experience". That experience includes a few hundred hours of creative work using laser projection on real shows, and involvement with the evaluation of new units proposed as xenon replacements. The only point I hope to get across is that laser projection is a work in progress and anyone interested in investing in one needs to proceed carefully.
 
Stylianos Ploumis wrote a Phd thesis on this recently, (JP who wrote the white paper above was one of his advisiors)
this a bit more in depth, covering similar ground:
https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/stream/pdf/24/1.0406454/3
the whole 143 pages are worth the read, but one slide in the paper is worth a thousand words:
Screen Shot 2023-11-05 at 2.15.24 PM copy.jpg

Figure 1.9 Example of metameric failure. The same colorimetry color (a) is displayed by two devices with
different SPDs (b). The resulting patches are also characterized by dissimilar SPDs (c), which trigger differently
the response functions of HVS (d). Human observers perceive this difference as color shift. However, color
meters (e) do report the two patches as identical due to the fact that they are equipped with non-optimized
response functions for narrowband light sources

so yea, the proj is a perfect match on a probe, not a match to the eye, and Stylianos's eyes, Danelle's eyes, JP's eyes, Water's eyes, Jason's eyes, Steve's eyes and my eyes will all see diffrent offsets.. there's alot more, if you have time and intrest - read his thesis
 
Last edited:
@Dermot Shane, thanks for the link. Great read! But this concept from your screenshot sounded familiar even before lasers were introduced.

What is interesting here - if you look at whitepaper about matching x300 and hx310, you can basically find graph that shows, as @Daniele Siragusano says "interobserver metamerism" with hx310 - different observers prefer different whitepoints for matching two monitors. Yet nobody says that hx310 or x300 is not suitable for color grading. On the contrary - these two monitors are considered one of the best for the job. The same thing was presented in whitepaper about matching OLED to CRT.

Are we looking at something completely different here with lasers? Or laser is just display technology that is much harder to calibrate properly using standard CMF?
 
Over a year now and still no advancement in post production projection? Really looking for something viable in a grading stage where a xenon-build, i.e booth/hushbox isn't optimal.
Recently emailed Christie and Barco and the latter still push this linked white paper and the MOC (metameric offset correction) as the solution:

"The proposed approach involves applying a 3x3 correction matrix to the physical calibration values of RGB laser projectors. This matrix, derived from extensive research and empirical data, addresses the narrow-bandwidth illumination of laser projectors and aligns color perception to bridge the gap with Xenon-lamp-based projectors. This approach allows for a smoother transition from Xenon-lamp-based projectors to laser projection while effectively compensating for metameric mismatches and ensuring consistent and accurate color reproduction in the cinema industry."

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/goran-stojmenovik-a193a39_metameric-offset-correction-for-cinema-postproduction-activity-7110130211613990913-udur


As well as the eminent release of the Barco SP4K-P, which is a RGB Laser projector with the MOC built based on their residential projector Freya, but it won't be for sale, only a usage-based model.

So they believe this is the way to go. Any more opinions now a year later in this thread?

Thanks,
V
 
@Vincent

There should be two P versions. 0.98 and 1.38.
(if 0.98 dmd problem is not fixed, than only 1.38 will be released)

1. SP4K-P (0.98") is not based on Freya+.
They are both based on same special commercial theatrical unit.
2. SP4K-P (1.38") as well as Nerthus residential projector are also based on a special commercial theatrical unit.
3. Barco SP4K-P will be for sale. Where and when did you get that info that it's not for sale ?
4. SP4K platform is loud, 50+ db measured on 1m, so it needs either a separate room or big hush box.
5. The MOC in P version does not work properly, neither a solution using a 3d lut box.
There are several very big additional problems with rgb laser engine which in combination with metameric issue,
makes it incredibly hard to solve at the moment.
6. Laser phosphor units are not better for grading since they have similar and some other problems.
 
Hi Stefan and thanks for chiming in,

You're probably right on your specifics, and the payment-model will probably be released this year so then we know for sure but In any case the fact remains that the MOC, or any software/LUT-based correction isn't the way to go. But then I started thinking about the Christie Eclipse with its patented 6DLP technology, that might be a way to solve this hardware-wise? if still sticking with RGB laser that is.
 
Hi Vincent,
I had the SP4K-P model for extensive testing (3 weeks) in my studio a year ago.
I can't say much more in public until the projector is released.
 
I have not seen Eclipse in person, but I have seen a conventional Barco flagship 6DLP which is very different tech. than Eclipse.
6DLP is not a solution for our problems :)
 
So it seems that new Barco management has indeed changed the idea regarding the Postproduction projector,
and to offer it as rental only.
It is a rather new and strange decision, opposite to the concept from last year.
 
We were interested in the Barco projector but the rental option really seems tone deaf and we are strongly looking at a Christie RGB laser now.
 
Back
Top